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It may be easier to find if it's under your name, Alvie.
Now you can fill this thread up with your essays, thoughts and opinions.
Now you can fill this thread up with your essays, thoughts and opinions.
2 posters
Alvie's Thread
alvie- Posts : 11
Join date : 2012-10-15
Not quite sure how to begin this since I am not an NDE or DE guy. However, I do deal with people in the minutes and hours following a loss and so perhaps your experiences and thoughts will be reflected in my service to them.
Also, let me suggest that I have people I count as not just acquaintances but friends who are divergent from me in belief.
Finally, there are very few basic beliefs which are foundational to my beliefs. All others are held as bents and biases but not things for which I would go to the mat.
If I do not get back to you in a timely fashion please do not take it personally, often my time is not my own.
Be safe,
Alvie
Also, let me suggest that I have people I count as not just acquaintances but friends who are divergent from me in belief.
Finally, there are very few basic beliefs which are foundational to my beliefs. All others are held as bents and biases but not things for which I would go to the mat.
If I do not get back to you in a timely fashion please do not take it personally, often my time is not my own.
Be safe,
Alvie
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 173
Join date : 2012-05-08
I'll wait for you to post your essays or a link to them, before we begin debates toward their material.
Why don't we begin with your explanation for what we understand as the horrors of this world?
In example; why is there disease, cruel mutations such as a baby being born with its internal organs exposed? Disasters such as earthshifts, tornados, hurricanes, asteroids?
That might get some interest.
Why don't we begin with your explanation for what we understand as the horrors of this world?
In example; why is there disease, cruel mutations such as a baby being born with its internal organs exposed? Disasters such as earthshifts, tornados, hurricanes, asteroids?
That might get some interest.
alvie- Posts : 11
Join date : 2012-10-15
These are tough issues because they effect the hearts and lives of people just like us. One cannot dismiss the toll on the heart of those who suffer these things.
One’s answers are tied directly to one’s assumptions. For example if one assumes there is nothing outside of the naturalist/rationalist box then I am the wrong person to ask.
For me from one whose truth paradigm depends upon there being something or someone outside of the naturalist/rationalist box there are two or three things to consider.
MISTAKES: Some people suffered the consequences of honest mistakes. There is no malicious intent. Closed and open box folks would agree on this one.
SIN AND EVIL: People who engage in risky evil and sinful behavior often effect touch people beyond themselves. Unfair as it is those so touched are victimized by the sins and failings of others. Closed and open box folks would agree on this one.
PHYSICAL AND MORAL ENTROPY: The initial creation of the earth that we now inhabit was perfect, a utopian paradise. It is now marred by sin and evil so it is there are storms, earthquakes, and tsunamis, etc. This is also true of the moral slide taking place. Such a catastrophic event as described leave multiplied thousands victimized. This position is possible because of there is something or someone outside of the box.
[/i][/i][/i]
One’s answers are tied directly to one’s assumptions. For example if one assumes there is nothing outside of the naturalist/rationalist box then I am the wrong person to ask.
For me from one whose truth paradigm depends upon there being something or someone outside of the naturalist/rationalist box there are two or three things to consider.
MISTAKES: Some people suffered the consequences of honest mistakes. There is no malicious intent. Closed and open box folks would agree on this one.
SIN AND EVIL: People who engage in risky evil and sinful behavior often effect touch people beyond themselves. Unfair as it is those so touched are victimized by the sins and failings of others. Closed and open box folks would agree on this one.
PHYSICAL AND MORAL ENTROPY: The initial creation of the earth that we now inhabit was perfect, a utopian paradise. It is now marred by sin and evil so it is there are storms, earthquakes, and tsunamis, etc. This is also true of the moral slide taking place. Such a catastrophic event as described leave multiplied thousands victimized. This position is possible because of there is something or someone outside of the box.
[/i][/i][/i]
Last edited by alvie on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Formatting)
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 173
Join date : 2012-05-08
You don't agree that the early Earth looked like the above image?
Could you define a perfect or utopian Earth? What of the dinosaurs?
alvie- Posts : 11
Join date : 2012-10-15
In response to the question of the picture, no I do not believe that the earth was a glowing mass of plasma etc. Again, from an “open box” view, God created the heavens and earth.
The interesting thing about dinosaurs is that they are thought to be millions etc. years old based upon the strata in which they are found. Again you are dealing with assumptions. How do we really know that the strata are that old?
In the study of fossils there are what are called polystrates or fossils that extend from one strata to and into another. Sometimes they can extend through several strata. Now here is the problem. With decay rates as they are, and with the assumption that it takes vast periods of time for these layers to be laid down, how is it that these things did not decay.
Those who think all is contained in the box (rational/naturalist) really have no answer for this. Those who think young earth explain that it did not take millions and millions of years for these strata to form. We have examples of this at Mt. St. Helens where coal deposits are already beginning to form.
So then enter Paluxy River Archeological Dig, Glen Rose, TX. In the dig dinosaur footprints and human footprints were found in the same strata of rock.
The interesting thing about dinosaurs is that they are thought to be millions etc. years old based upon the strata in which they are found. Again you are dealing with assumptions. How do we really know that the strata are that old?
In the study of fossils there are what are called polystrates or fossils that extend from one strata to and into another. Sometimes they can extend through several strata. Now here is the problem. With decay rates as they are, and with the assumption that it takes vast periods of time for these layers to be laid down, how is it that these things did not decay.
Those who think all is contained in the box (rational/naturalist) really have no answer for this. Those who think young earth explain that it did not take millions and millions of years for these strata to form. We have examples of this at Mt. St. Helens where coal deposits are already beginning to form.
So then enter Paluxy River Archeological Dig, Glen Rose, TX. In the dig dinosaur footprints and human footprints were found in the same strata of rock.
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 173
Join date : 2012-05-08
http://paleo.cc/paluxy.htm
http://paleo.cc/paluxy.htm
Alvie, I won't go into much detail as I'd like others to join in on this thread. However, in regard to macro decay...bacteria is usually involved for such breakdown or decoherence. Some fossils found deep into the Earth through drillings that extend miles have been found with pieces of skin because of the preservation against bacteria. In outer space which is about as close to a vacuum as we can get...the body won't decay fully...but it will have some amount of breakdown/decay because our bodies each carry over 90 trillion microbes and these microbes will live off the body until they too die in the vastness of space. In theory...if we burried ourselves in miles of Earth away from outside bacteria...we'd look pretty good millions of years from now.
p.s. The above link will give you a brief explanation of the Paluxy find.
http://paleo.cc/paluxy.htm
Alvie, I won't go into much detail as I'd like others to join in on this thread. However, in regard to macro decay...bacteria is usually involved for such breakdown or decoherence. Some fossils found deep into the Earth through drillings that extend miles have been found with pieces of skin because of the preservation against bacteria. In outer space which is about as close to a vacuum as we can get...the body won't decay fully...but it will have some amount of breakdown/decay because our bodies each carry over 90 trillion microbes and these microbes will live off the body until they too die in the vastness of space. In theory...if we burried ourselves in miles of Earth away from outside bacteria...we'd look pretty good millions of years from now.
p.s. The above link will give you a brief explanation of the Paluxy find.
alvie- Posts : 11
Join date : 2012-10-15
My apologies re the Paluxy find.
In our various visits, though our assumptions differ and therefore our conclusions differ, it seems to me that we do share a bias--the truth. I did not fully research the subject. In fact, one of the people (a creationist) that exposed me to it has now come out against it.
____________________________________________
NOTE***NOTE***NOTE
This subject may not be of interest to people who stop by this page and thus be better discussed in other forums. If so, we can move this discussion and deal with other questions more pertinent to the NDE and the DE.
_____________________________________________
As to polystrate fossils. If it takes millions and millions of years for a strata to form, then just as a tree in the forest today decays rather rapidly, so too there should have been rapid decay then and thus no polystrate fossils.
However, if there was a catastrophic event that covered the tree with two or more strata and if such strata deprived the microbes of oxygen then it would stand to reason that conditions are right for it to become a polystrate fossil.
Now the question is this. How many geological digs world wide have polystrate fossils? Are they isolated here and there or is there a general occurrence world wide.
As interesting as that question might be, there is another point. It is that rock strata that for years has been thought to take millions and millions of years to form may actually form quite rapidly. If not, then how did the polystrate fossils come to be?
In our various visits, though our assumptions differ and therefore our conclusions differ, it seems to me that we do share a bias--the truth. I did not fully research the subject. In fact, one of the people (a creationist) that exposed me to it has now come out against it.
____________________________________________
NOTE***NOTE***NOTE
This subject may not be of interest to people who stop by this page and thus be better discussed in other forums. If so, we can move this discussion and deal with other questions more pertinent to the NDE and the DE.
_____________________________________________
As to polystrate fossils. If it takes millions and millions of years for a strata to form, then just as a tree in the forest today decays rather rapidly, so too there should have been rapid decay then and thus no polystrate fossils.
However, if there was a catastrophic event that covered the tree with two or more strata and if such strata deprived the microbes of oxygen then it would stand to reason that conditions are right for it to become a polystrate fossil.
Now the question is this. How many geological digs world wide have polystrate fossils? Are they isolated here and there or is there a general occurrence world wide.
As interesting as that question might be, there is another point. It is that rock strata that for years has been thought to take millions and millions of years to form may actually form quite rapidly. If not, then how did the polystrate fossils come to be?
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 173
Join date : 2012-05-08
There's plently of information on that subject, Alvie.
The fact is that Dinosaurs did exist and they did not exist 6 to 10 thousand years ago in a garden of Eden.
Why was there no mention of their existence, Alvie? Why didn't Jesus talk about them...or talk about anything past philosophy and religion and empty promises. Like I've said to you before...the meek will not inherit the Earth...the sun will and the sun isn't meek by any stretch of the imagination. It's been pretty much survival of the fittest and it will continue to be until this planet no longer exist as it is consumed in the sun's expansion as it too moves into its own decay.
We're understanding more and more...and as a personal opinion, religion must either move out of the way or completely reinvent itself in a much lesser detrimental form than it currently is.
The fact is that Dinosaurs did exist and they did not exist 6 to 10 thousand years ago in a garden of Eden.
Why was there no mention of their existence, Alvie? Why didn't Jesus talk about them...or talk about anything past philosophy and religion and empty promises. Like I've said to you before...the meek will not inherit the Earth...the sun will and the sun isn't meek by any stretch of the imagination. It's been pretty much survival of the fittest and it will continue to be until this planet no longer exist as it is consumed in the sun's expansion as it too moves into its own decay.
We're understanding more and more...and as a personal opinion, religion must either move out of the way or completely reinvent itself in a much lesser detrimental form than it currently is.
alvie- Posts : 11
Join date : 2012-10-15
Re: "It's been pretty much survival of the fittest and it will continue to be until this planet no longer exist as it is consumed in the sun's expansion as it too moves into its own decay."
Could you explain this further?
Could you explain this further?
Admin- Admin
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Join date : 2012-05-08
alvie- Posts : 11
Join date : 2012-10-15
So if I am understanding this, the Sun is supposed to decay until it essentially no longer exists, small as the earth and cooled off.
In terms of the polystrates you also spoke of microbial decay. Is there anything you can think of that is not subject to decay?
I cannot but maybe you can. Anyone care to chime in on this I would like to hear from you.
Alvie
In terms of the polystrates you also spoke of microbial decay. Is there anything you can think of that is not subject to decay?
I cannot but maybe you can. Anyone care to chime in on this I would like to hear from you.
Alvie
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 173
Join date : 2012-05-08
Just wanted to let everyone know that I haven't forgotten about this forum, nor these threads.
Alvie and I have carried on some rather lengthy debates in private as well as on various posts that he submits to facebook.
If it's alright with him...I'll post some of those polemics here under this thread.
p.s. come on folks...start up new threads...submit whatever you feel will get a discussion going...have fun sharing ideas. This is YOUR forum, not mine. If you want admin. rights and I haven't yet set that up for you...let me know. We're in the beginnings of this forum and it's been started in order that all of you can share your experiences, your anger, your frustration, your sorrow, your achievment, your happiness, your euphoria...and your wisdom.
Alvie and I have carried on some rather lengthy debates in private as well as on various posts that he submits to facebook.
If it's alright with him...I'll post some of those polemics here under this thread.
p.s. come on folks...start up new threads...submit whatever you feel will get a discussion going...have fun sharing ideas. This is YOUR forum, not mine. If you want admin. rights and I haven't yet set that up for you...let me know. We're in the beginnings of this forum and it's been started in order that all of you can share your experiences, your anger, your frustration, your sorrow, your achievment, your happiness, your euphoria...and your wisdom.
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 173
Join date : 2012-05-08
.
Okay...this is a conversation that we had recently on facebook. There's a ton of stuff on private messaging that Alvie has given his approval to posts. I'll get to those some other time (leaving tomr. and must pack).
Hope this isn't too confusing?
___________________________________
"The evidence is there but only for the conscientious seeker of truth. All others are destined to live out the consequences of their choices to look away from the truth. As someone once said, 'God gives you the power to choose but not the consequences!'” Read more at,
Alvie's Essays...: “Christianity - Is it Cruel?”
alviesthots.blogspot.com.
Like · · Unfollow Post · Share.
Cloe Solis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA55jGyq2C8
Christianity is False and Immoral. (Christopher Hitchens)
Excerpt from the 2007 Christopher Hitchens vs Alister Mcgrath debate. Full debat...
See More.
Yesterday at 4:08pm · Like · Remove Preview..
Alvie Robbins Interesting but flawed at several points. Again it is a finite view of the actions of an infinite God. God may but is not bound to make sense of a human's rational function.
Yesterday at 5:57pm · Like..
Alvie Robbins of = according to
Yesterday at 5:58pm · Like..
Cloe Solis There you go...talking for a non-existant entity. Haven't you wondered why it is that it doesn't talk for its self?
Yesterday at 6:01pm · Like..
Alvie Robbins Does He talk? Yes, yes He does! He does in the laughter of a child, the dawning of a new day, the crisp fall evening, and the falling of new snow. He does in the dip and turn of a barn swallow, in the grandeur of the starlit heavens, and the whisper...See More
Yesterday at 6:35pm · Like..
Alvie Robbins Psalms 139:7-12 Is there anyplace I can go to avoid your Spirit? to be out of your sight? If I climb to the sky, you're there! If I go underground, you're there! If I flew on morning's wings to the far western horizon, You'd find me in a minute — yo...See More
Yesterday at 6:35pm · Like..
Cloe Solis Poetics don't suffice. You know what I meant...as in talk directly in human language.
Yesterday at 7:06pm · Like..
Cloe Solis Toto's needed to pull back the curtain.
Yesterday at 7:08pm · Like..
Alvie Robbins But God did...we call it the Bible. Cloe, it is the most examined book in history and yet over and over the veracity of the text, consistency of message, etc. has been demonstrated. It is the most quoted book in all of history and the criticism of it...See More
Dr Francis Collins interview on CNN
Dr Francis Collins (Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute) ex...
See More.
21 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis Good and Holy? The innate ability to substantiate benefit is for survival. Babies recognize beneficial behaviors...however, not toward others. Altruism comes much later in life...and we seem to play it like a chess game. We are generous in order th...See More
20 hours ago · Edited · Like..
Cloe Solis The Judaic god never spoke even in your bible...because if those words are credited to this god, than he is insane. He is narcisistic, cruel, biased, and worse than any murderer, pedophile, torturer, psychotic that has ever existed on this planet.
20 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis Don't forget all the miscarriages, the ectopic pregnancies, the children born with organs outside their bodies, many babies born to only suffer until death (look into the glassy eyes of the starving). Your god decides to show up two thousand years ago...See More
20 hours ago · Edited · Like..
Alvie Robbins A story. Just suppose that a Mrs. Jones answer the door bell and there stands a man and without saying a word he hands her a nice new crisp $100.00 bill. At the same time the next day the door bell rings again and there is the same man who does the s...See More
Joni's Bio | Joni and Friends
www.joniandfriends.org
Joni Eareckson Tada, the founder and Chief Executive Officer of Joni and Friends...
See More.
9 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis How can you say such a thing when there are so many babies that are miscarried, or kill their mothers? So much disease and mutation...and mistakes such as organs developing outside the body. Doctor Collins should know better...he can see the immense ...See More
7 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis You should realize that there have been many gods...some very similar to the Judaic god. Zeus pregnated many virgins and created many demi-gods (half human half god). The Judaic god isn't tht much different. The Judaic god is jealous and gets angry....See More
7 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins Okay so God should stop all consequences of man's behavior and if He does not do so He is not real, does not exist, etc.
7 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis How the heck is what I gave as examples credited to "man's behavior"?
7 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins So man's behavior has no bearing on birth defects and problems tied to genetics?
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis If your god actually existed...there could not be free will. Your god is suppose to know ALL...that means EVERYTHING. Therefore, it knows that what it makes is going to suffer and yet it makes it anyway. It knows what your next move is...it knows EVERYTHING. Yet...it punishes? It's making things so it can burn forever? That makes no sense whatsoever. If that were so...it's insane!
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis It wouldn't matter, Alvie. But let's say that my great great great grandparents were incestual or whatever and this caused a weakness in genetics...that's nature showing patterns, that it's probably not a good idea to screw your cousin. Those that ar...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis Your god would in fact be responsible if it existed. But you don't seem to get that?
6 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins You are right, if that were so but that is not how it is. To know is not to control. God has invested in man choice and consequences. So it is that people make choices and then there are outcomes. Sometimes those outcomes effect other people. Ulti...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis An all knowing god could not make free will. That's what you don't seem to understand. Okay...try this...if you are a manufacturer and you made a toy that you KNOW is going to kill a few children...and you make it anyway...YOU are responsible. It do...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins Actually great, great, great grandparents and cousins aside, the gene pool is being corrupted. You can go with the God knows therefore He controls but that then obviates the individual from being responsible. Therefore you have fate and fatalism. Th...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis If a god existed then you would correct in regard to "fate". I don't believe in gods or a god. So far, quantum physics tells us that the Universe is random. Yea for us!
6 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins Okay but what if the toy is perfectly created but with an artificial intelligence chip. The toy once assembled then makes choices. Those choices have consequences. So then let's have a look at theories and assumptions. As to QP, the universe is ran...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis You're under the assumption that your god does not know everything. See....your god would know all the so called choices....the artificial intelligence chip wouldn't make sense...it would all be a lie...choice would not actually exist.
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis Entropy would not actually exist if your god existed. Remember...what's being debated is a determiner.
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis An absolute determiner.
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis I have to leave.
6 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins Be safe
6 hours ago · Like..
Write a comment...
Okay...this is a conversation that we had recently on facebook. There's a ton of stuff on private messaging that Alvie has given his approval to posts. I'll get to those some other time (leaving tomr. and must pack).
Hope this isn't too confusing?
___________________________________
"The evidence is there but only for the conscientious seeker of truth. All others are destined to live out the consequences of their choices to look away from the truth. As someone once said, 'God gives you the power to choose but not the consequences!'” Read more at,
Alvie's Essays...: “Christianity - Is it Cruel?”
alviesthots.blogspot.com.
Like · · Unfollow Post · Share.
Cloe Solis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA55jGyq2C8
Christianity is False and Immoral. (Christopher Hitchens)
Excerpt from the 2007 Christopher Hitchens vs Alister Mcgrath debate. Full debat...
See More.
Yesterday at 4:08pm · Like · Remove Preview..
Alvie Robbins Interesting but flawed at several points. Again it is a finite view of the actions of an infinite God. God may but is not bound to make sense of a human's rational function.
Yesterday at 5:57pm · Like..
Alvie Robbins of = according to
Yesterday at 5:58pm · Like..
Cloe Solis There you go...talking for a non-existant entity. Haven't you wondered why it is that it doesn't talk for its self?
Yesterday at 6:01pm · Like..
Alvie Robbins Does He talk? Yes, yes He does! He does in the laughter of a child, the dawning of a new day, the crisp fall evening, and the falling of new snow. He does in the dip and turn of a barn swallow, in the grandeur of the starlit heavens, and the whisper...See More
Yesterday at 6:35pm · Like..
Alvie Robbins Psalms 139:7-12 Is there anyplace I can go to avoid your Spirit? to be out of your sight? If I climb to the sky, you're there! If I go underground, you're there! If I flew on morning's wings to the far western horizon, You'd find me in a minute — yo...See More
Yesterday at 6:35pm · Like..
Cloe Solis Poetics don't suffice. You know what I meant...as in talk directly in human language.
Yesterday at 7:06pm · Like..
Cloe Solis Toto's needed to pull back the curtain.
Yesterday at 7:08pm · Like..
Alvie Robbins But God did...we call it the Bible. Cloe, it is the most examined book in history and yet over and over the veracity of the text, consistency of message, etc. has been demonstrated. It is the most quoted book in all of history and the criticism of it...See More
Dr Francis Collins interview on CNN
Dr Francis Collins (Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute) ex...
See More.
21 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis Good and Holy? The innate ability to substantiate benefit is for survival. Babies recognize beneficial behaviors...however, not toward others. Altruism comes much later in life...and we seem to play it like a chess game. We are generous in order th...See More
20 hours ago · Edited · Like..
Cloe Solis The Judaic god never spoke even in your bible...because if those words are credited to this god, than he is insane. He is narcisistic, cruel, biased, and worse than any murderer, pedophile, torturer, psychotic that has ever existed on this planet.
20 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis Don't forget all the miscarriages, the ectopic pregnancies, the children born with organs outside their bodies, many babies born to only suffer until death (look into the glassy eyes of the starving). Your god decides to show up two thousand years ago...See More
20 hours ago · Edited · Like..
Alvie Robbins A story. Just suppose that a Mrs. Jones answer the door bell and there stands a man and without saying a word he hands her a nice new crisp $100.00 bill. At the same time the next day the door bell rings again and there is the same man who does the s...See More
Joni's Bio | Joni and Friends
www.joniandfriends.org
Joni Eareckson Tada, the founder and Chief Executive Officer of Joni and Friends...
See More.
9 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis How can you say such a thing when there are so many babies that are miscarried, or kill their mothers? So much disease and mutation...and mistakes such as organs developing outside the body. Doctor Collins should know better...he can see the immense ...See More
7 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis You should realize that there have been many gods...some very similar to the Judaic god. Zeus pregnated many virgins and created many demi-gods (half human half god). The Judaic god isn't tht much different. The Judaic god is jealous and gets angry....See More
7 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins Okay so God should stop all consequences of man's behavior and if He does not do so He is not real, does not exist, etc.
7 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis How the heck is what I gave as examples credited to "man's behavior"?
7 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins So man's behavior has no bearing on birth defects and problems tied to genetics?
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis If your god actually existed...there could not be free will. Your god is suppose to know ALL...that means EVERYTHING. Therefore, it knows that what it makes is going to suffer and yet it makes it anyway. It knows what your next move is...it knows EVERYTHING. Yet...it punishes? It's making things so it can burn forever? That makes no sense whatsoever. If that were so...it's insane!
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis It wouldn't matter, Alvie. But let's say that my great great great grandparents were incestual or whatever and this caused a weakness in genetics...that's nature showing patterns, that it's probably not a good idea to screw your cousin. Those that ar...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis Your god would in fact be responsible if it existed. But you don't seem to get that?
6 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins You are right, if that were so but that is not how it is. To know is not to control. God has invested in man choice and consequences. So it is that people make choices and then there are outcomes. Sometimes those outcomes effect other people. Ulti...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis An all knowing god could not make free will. That's what you don't seem to understand. Okay...try this...if you are a manufacturer and you made a toy that you KNOW is going to kill a few children...and you make it anyway...YOU are responsible. It do...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins Actually great, great, great grandparents and cousins aside, the gene pool is being corrupted. You can go with the God knows therefore He controls but that then obviates the individual from being responsible. Therefore you have fate and fatalism. Th...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis If a god existed then you would correct in regard to "fate". I don't believe in gods or a god. So far, quantum physics tells us that the Universe is random. Yea for us!
6 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins Okay but what if the toy is perfectly created but with an artificial intelligence chip. The toy once assembled then makes choices. Those choices have consequences. So then let's have a look at theories and assumptions. As to QP, the universe is ran...See More
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis You're under the assumption that your god does not know everything. See....your god would know all the so called choices....the artificial intelligence chip wouldn't make sense...it would all be a lie...choice would not actually exist.
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis Entropy would not actually exist if your god existed. Remember...what's being debated is a determiner.
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis An absolute determiner.
6 hours ago · Like..
Cloe Solis I have to leave.
6 hours ago · Like..
Alvie Robbins Be safe
6 hours ago · Like..
Write a comment...
Admin- Admin
- Posts : 173
Join date : 2012-05-08
Here's a recent debate that Alvie and I had a few days ago:
9 people like this.
Alvie Robbins God gives the power to choose but not the consequences. Choose #1 and what have you lost. Choose #2 and it is an eternal "crap shoot." I for one am not willing to take a chance!
March 5 at 10:47am • Like
Alvie Robbins The sign prompted a blog posting...http://alviesthots.blogspot.com/2013/03/eternal-games-of-chance.html
Alvie's Essays...: "Eternal Games of Chance"
alviesthots.blogspot.com
March 5 at 1:32pm • Like
Cloe Solis Why? See, that's the thing with many cults, they have to threaten in order to get followers. Consequences? ...threats.
March 5 at 7:16pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Cloe, see the next posting on the same subject for a different take on the matter.
March 5 at 8:13pm • Edited • Like
Cloe Solis It's an assumption of apathy. One need not be religious to be altruistic. However, if one is religious is one truly altruistic if belief is towards one's benefit to be altruistic?
March 5 at 8:20pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Maybe you could explain what altruism has to do with my discussion of apathy. I do not get it.
March 5 at 8:29pm • Like
Cloe Solis Caring for others as opposed to indifference. And while you're on the subject of human attitude and or behavior....shall we put your god on the stand as well? How so called "good" is your god in the scheme of things? How much horror can nature be credited? Your god the murderer, the torturer, the apparent sado-masochist (if it existed)...is echoed throughout nature. Yes Jesus....look at the birds and observe how much they suffer (I'll pass on your dad taking care of us as such.).
March 5 at 9:07pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. Your arguments and criticisms of Christ followers is nothing new. A reading the works of those who study ancient document will reveal that the same criticisms and arguments took place in the second century. Nothing new here.
March 5 at 9:47pm • Like
Cloe Solis There's no historical record of the guy or his apostles. The concil of nicea cut out what they didn't agree with (betcha most christians don't know who arius was...and they never will). So, what "history" has been studied? Jesus Christ most likely did not exist...and IF he did...he didn't in any way resemble the character that is depicted in the NT...that was Mithra. Mithra was born on Dec. 25th to a virgin and three wise men and a star....and Easter is actually Mithra's death in which he rose from the dead after three days. But you can't have the truth told, can you? Christianity has turned into such a huge industry, that those that are its followers must be kept ignorant. Heck....Jesus is still depicted as a handsome caucasian....geezus!
March 5 at 10:01pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Cloe, the reality is far different than you think. Even a casual reading of church history will reveal that there were many who predate Nicea and who wrote defending the Faith. The three that come to mind were classically trained in philosophy and came to Christ. Two of them, Aristides and Quadratus lived in Athens and in AD 124 directed their writings to Hadrian who was visiting Athens.
March 5 at 11:23pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins In the writings of Eusebius and Jerome around 150 years or so later we find reference to and quotation from the writings of these two philosophers who had come to Christ. Somewhere around 20 years after Aristides and Quadratus wrote there lived a man named Justin Martyr who also was classically trained wrote to defend Christianity against those who leveled false accusations against Christians.
March 5 at 11:32pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins Actually there is more evidence that they existed and wrote etc. than there is that you exist. Their writings have been studied and read by thousands and thousands of people from scholars down to commoners. Therefore, applying your thinking it is more prudent for me to believe in them than in you. As I say, even a casual reading of Church history will reveal their existence.
March 5 at 11:27pm • Like
Alvie Robbins By the by, the last NT book to be written was the Book of Revelation which was authored somewhere between 90 and 100. In the AD 170 Muratorian Canon all but thre of the New Testament books were listed as canonical. In fairness it contained other books as well.
March 5 at 11:28pm • Like
Alvie Robbins As to Mithra, you may recall that I wrote to you extensively about that the belief in her and that even secular history records that the cult was of little importance and was not exercised to any great degree until somewhere in the late 2nd Century and that in Rome. Before that it was little known, little practiced, and thus you would be hard put to show a connection that would prove to any prudent scholar that it was the foundation of Christianity. The documentation is simply not there.
March 5 at 11:38pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins It seems to me that you are caught in your thinking and like an old wax record with a crack, you keep playing the same words over and over again. You are capable of so much more than taking pot shots at Christians especially since there is, as I noted previously, really nothing new in your arsenal. Same old stuff.
March 5 at 11:39pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins Well, gotta go do some other stuff.
March 5 at 11:39pm • Like
Cloe Solis You appear to be confused, Alvie. Mithra:Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or "disciples."
He performed miracles.
As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
He ascended to heaven.
Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
Mithraism emphasized baptism.
Wednesday at 10:58am • Like
Cloe Solis As far as the "philosophers" that you mention...do you mean Tacitus and Josephus? They were historians that were born after your god's death (if he existed). Both Tacitus and Josephus passages have been considered "forgeries". Why? Well, for one, Josephus mentions "The Christ" and Josephus was a Jew. Jews do NOT accept Jesus as their messiah. Tacitus mentions the "Christians"...and the mention is said to be very out of place amongst his writings.
Wednesday at 11:04am • Like
Alvie Robbins No meant the three that I mentioned. Re: Mithra--how about a source that is without bias--check http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/386080/Mithraism.
Mithraism (Persian religion) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
www.britannica.com
The worship of Mithra, the Iranian god of the sun, justice, contract, and war in... pre-Zoroastrian Iran. Known as Mithras in the Roman Empire during the 2nd and 3rd centuries ad, this deity was honoured...See More
Wednesday at 11:11am • Like
Cloe Solis This is where I copied the quick reference: http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm
Mithra the Pagan Christ | Mithraism and Christianity | Mithras the Sun God
www.truthbeknown.com
Mithra, the Light of the World, is an ancient sun god identified with Sol Invict...us, who was born on December 25th. Mithra resembled Jesus Christ in many ways, including having a virgin birth, 12 companions and an ascension into heaven, as well as other doctrinal and ritual correspondences such as ba...See More
Wednesday at 11:53am • Like • Remove Preview
Cloe Solis The Judaic god wants its followers to worship it foremost above all other gods. That was common amongst the gods. They all wanted to be worshiped as the dominant god. It's a man-made mind construct.
Wednesday at 11:55am • Like
Alvie Robbins From your source: Mithra and Christ
"Over the centuries—in fact, from the earliest Christian times—Mithraism has been compared to Christianity, revealing numerous similarities between the two faiths' doctrines and traditions, including as concerns stories of their respective godmen. In developing this analysis, it should be kept in mind that elements from Roman, Armenian and Persian Mithraism are utilized, not as a whole ideology but as separate items that may have affected the creation of Christianity, whether directly through the mechanism of Mithraism or through another Pagan source within the Roman Empire and beyond. The evidence points to these motifs and elements being adopted into Christianity not as a whole from one source but singularly from many sources, including Mithraism."
Wednesday at 11:57am • Like
Alvie Robbins What that is saying is that elements from Roman, Armenian, and Persian Mithraism are supposedly imported into Christianity. 1) There is no artifact, document, or other credible archeological source that can prove this. Thus it is in the category of unfounded or conjecture. 2) The notion seems to have evolved. The Scriptures close in 100 AD and were in wide circulation around the Roman Empire well before the 3rd Century. Thus if anything Roman Mitheraism was influenced by Christianity 3) Check the dating of what the OT Prophets said about the coming Christ--when they wrote. Also be sure to note that Judaism was a purist religion thus they would never import from the religions which they were strictly forbidden to practice!
Wednesday at 12:04pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Please include the following at the end. "Just as with Judaism, Christianity was a purist religion and the importation of other religions and practices was strictly forbidden!"
Wednesday at 12:06pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Again, there is much speculation but show me hard scholarship, not speculation but hard scholarship based upon archeology, the writings from the Library at Alexandria, Constantinople, and/or Rome where there is sound documentation that such is so. There are hundreds of thousands of ancient manuscripts etc. and none can be put on the table to prove your point.
Wednesday at 12:08pm • Like
Alvie Robbins The point to consider is this. Man was created to be in fellowship with God. The God of creation calls upon man to do so. God knows man and with man in mind gave to man guidance on how to live. Man rebelled against that guidance and so has created gods which he finds to be convenient. Jesus came to show the way back to God. All men to include you are called upon to make the choice.
Wednesday at 12:11pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Jesus said, "Come unto Me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of Me for my way is easy and my burden is light." Man does one of three things. 1) He finds God through Jesus Christ. Yes, it is a step into the unknown by faith. This is hard for it requires trust and for some because of life's experiences it is hard but not impossible.
Wednesday at 12:14pm • Like
Alvie Robbins 2) Man creates a god of convenience. This god will never rise above the creators moral/ethical level. Of course this god is not at all fulfilling for just as man's self is insatiable so too is the god he creates. 3) Man becomes so in love with his own thinking that such becomes a god. In this case all must fit through that man's understanding. The sad part is that such understanding is deceived into thinking of itself on a much higher plane than is reality.
Wednesday at 12:16pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Again, Cloe, Jesus' call is to come and try Me. He offers what all others cannot, peace in adversity, fulfillment in life, and a hope that is beyond one's capacity to understand. However, it is as you point out all about control (you frequently express this as a criticism of Christianity). The reality of it all is far different than you suppose or propose. Those who make the claim that no one will control them are in the clutches of themselves and in reality are under the control of the insatiable self.
Wednesday at 12:21pm • Like
Alvie Robbins The reality of Christianity--true Christianity is that it frees one from the power of the self and in doing so allows one the freedom to choose. You see you have no choice in the matter of sin--well you can redefine it but it makes not difference, sin is sin no matter how it is defined, labeled, or explained. What you see as freedom in reality will take you to a place of bondage. Jesus Christ came to free His followers from their sin and the attendant bondages.
Wednesday at 12:24pm • Like
Chris Bassett Cloe, you sound like what I'm often accused of...always having the perfect, refutation at hand. This begs the question of how perfect are your refutations. I've heard the criticisms about Mithra and Josephus' false writings, among all of the others. I teach about Arius to my people, too (including how Athanasius punched him in the nose at the council of Nicaea!). Arius was heretical because he was out of step with the traditional teachings of the church and writings of the Apostles. He was the cult leader - especially if you read how he treated Athanasius in Alexandria.
Your arguments are irrefutable. Not because they are correct, but because you believe them as a crutch against what yo don't wish to believe. You have judged God and made Him subject to you, rather than accepting the possibility that He may actually be a) good, b) guiding history toward His ends, and c) able to maintain faith in Him despite man's (or Satan's) interventions. I could easily give my refutations to your arguments and we could go on and on, but you would look at mine as I look at yours, saying, "How convenient."
I will simply pray for you to have a revelation of Jesus as I have had, and as hundreds of my friends have had - a deep, personal, on-going revelation of His goodness, the truth of His message, the far-surpassing superiority of His way, and the beauty if His life. And I will pray that you see that we are and have always been the agents of evil who choose our own way, to our detriment. As C.S. Lewis pointed out: Hell is a place where the gates are locked from within. If we are judged, it is because we first wrongly judged. But in Christ we no longer are condemned, and neither do we condemn.
Wednesday at 12:33pm • Like
Cloe Solis Let me offer you this, Chris...I come from a culture that at one time was pagan (few but some still are polytheistic). The majority may believe in your god, but they still carry "respect" for the gods. Madame Pele is not only believed, but has been seen on many occasions. So, tell me...is she real? Is she a real god? Do you not see what we as a species are doing to ourselves? We are stopping discovery, because we have given into belief. If someone were to come to you and say that they spoke to your god, would you just believe them? Or, would you investigate and find out what was going on....and never ever stop until you do find out what is going on? The first means is religious, the second means is science. Even if you died and came back with an experience does not make such absolute....you in my opinion should take that experience and find out what's going on. That's what I've been doing for well over forty years now, and during that time, I have found your religion along with other religions to be false. They are man-made constructs and nothing more. Btw...Christ did indeed "condemn". It's one of the most judgmental religions around....and pushy pushy pushy. Why is it so pushy? Because everyone that is not "saved" by your Jesus Christ is "condemned to HELL where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Threats threats threats...typical cult.
Wednesday at 1:35pm • Like
Alvie Robbins So now I am confused. You just wrote, " Btw...Christ did indeed "condemn". So your statement and that which followed as much as says Jesus did live. Explain?
Wednesday at 1:39pm • Like
Cloe Solis Btw...imo....your refutation Chris was not "perfect". It was more toward "yeah, I read all that and still believe in the Easter Bunny". The refutation to that is "believe in the Easter Bunny, but don't spread the lie."
Wednesday at 1:39pm • Like
Cloe Solis It's called the benefit of doubt, Alvie. I'm debating on the premise that the guy existed. I honestly don't believe that he did in the manner to which he's been created.
Wednesday at 1:40pm • Like
Alvie Robbins "I honestly don't believe that he did in the manner to which he's been created." So he existed but not in the manner that Christians believe?
Wednesday at 1:43pm • Like
Cloe Solis He may have...I dunno....there's no historical records. He certainly wasn't exemplarary or there would be tons of historical record on the guy.
Wednesday at 1:44pm • Like
Cloe Solis I know a guy that died and asked specifically about "Jesus Christ". His account sounds much more realistic than the god he's made out to be.
Wednesday at 1:45pm • Like
Cloe Solis But you wouldn't be able to make a business out of him then.
Wednesday at 1:46pm • Like
Alvie Robbins So there is a possibility that he existed? Did I get that right?
Wednesday at 1:46pm • Like
Cloe Solis His name wasn't Jesus and he was a rebellious rabbi. So there could be an actual person that this has stemmed from...yes...but not the person that has been created, no.
Wednesday at 1:48pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Well actually "Jesus" was a common name of the day. There were many just as today you find "Jesus" in Latin cultures.
Wednesday at 1:49pm • Like
Cloe Solis Jesus is greek isn't it? It certainly wasn't "Emmanuel".
Wednesday at 1:50pm • Like
Cloe Solis My friend said that he had five followers (not the twelve apostles as was Mithra's), and no miracles. His doctrine was more welcoming to outsiders, and that's what was found to be appealing.
Wednesday at 1:52pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Hebrew Yeshua - no j/g sound in Hebrew. His name was found in OT in the person of the second leader of Israel Joshua. The name means, "YHWH saves"
Wednesday at 1:54pm • Like
Cloe Solis Why would an all knowing god have to save anyone when it already knows everything that was going to happen and made it anyway?
Wednesday at 1:55pm • Like
Cloe Solis It would be like you making something just to torture it....forever (remember wailing and gnashing forever and ever).
Wednesday at 1:56pm • Like
Cloe Solis An obviously blatant contradiction....that all believers seem to overlook.
Wednesday at 1:57pm • Like
Alvie Robbins These are your thoughts out of your assumptions. As noted earlier, "Knowing is not controlling." God gave man the freedom to make choices! You choose your assumptions and then out of those assumptions come your beliefs. You have the power to choose but not the outcomes!
Wednesday at 2:17pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins Cloe, there are no end of the questions that begin with, "Did God really say?" The message of the serpent was God is ripping you off. It has been so since then. I choose to believe God is good. I may not understand nor even like His good but He is good! That is my assumption.
Wednesday at 2:19pm • Edited • Like
Cloe Solis Did you know that there was a gnostic cult (original Christians) that believed that the actual god was the one that wanted man to have knowledge and that the evil one was the one that wanted to keep man in its zoo. Interesting, huh? I see that as a philosophy and not as how you may believe it to be a reality. An "ALL KNOWING" god CANNOT give free will....it CANNOT give "freedom to make choices".....because it already KNOWS EVERRYTHING. Therefore anyone that believes that they have choice under your beliefs is fooling themselves as it's ALL KNOWN. Your next move is KNOWN. Your next move was already KNOWN before you came into existence as your god is ALL KNOWING....KNOWS ALL EVERTHING BEGINNING AND END. You under your beliefs are therefore predetermined to do exactly what you will do. Some folks like this idea because then they have something to blame.
Wednesday at 2:41pm • Like
Alvie Robbins The "gnostics" were not the original Christians but an aberration which taught that they had special and exclusive knowledge not available to others. They taught for example that all matter is bad and therefore Jesus did not come physically, die physically, etc. Again it is as said earlier, "All is in the assumptions one is prepared to accept!" You cannot accept any other assumption about God and free will for it would allow for the possibility that God is good.
Wednesday at 2:47pm • Like
Cloe Solis Which gnostics are you speaking for? There were a few sects/cults. As stated before....an "ALL KNOWING" god could not give free will or choice. Hmm...okay...try this...let's say that you're all knowing, that would be a closed system in which all information is known. It's not infinite as its "ALL" so there is a beginning and end to your system. You cannot give any of your creation their very own freewill because you already know everything, everything or you wouldn't be all knowing. You would therefore be lying to your creatures if you claimed to have given them their own will. Can you not see this very simple contradiction in your religion?
Wednesday at 3:01pm • Like
Cloe Solis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
Gnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Gnostic Gospels • Nag Hammadi libraryCodex Tchacos • Askew CodexPseudo-Abdias •B...ruce Codex • Berlin Codex • Gnosticism and the New Testament • Clementine literatureSee More
Wednesday at 3:02pm • Like • Remove Preview
Alvie Robbins First, understand that God has free will and can do as He pleases. He is not bound by our intellect nor our understanding! Second, a story.
Wednesday at 3:49pm • Like
Alvie Robbins You meet your husband to be and go to the shaman you heard about and you purchase a potent that you put in your husband to his drink. He drinks it and falls madly in love with you, marries you, etc. You would never know if he does love you or if it is the potent you gave him. As with all similes it breaks down if carried too far. However, the basic truth is there! God gave us a choice and by the way, He has no responsibility to be logical according to our finite standards of logic. He can do what He d--- well pleases. I've chosen to believe in Him and follow Him even on those few occasions when He makes no sense to me--that is faith. You've chosen another path. As you say, without free will there is no responsibility. Be it just as you say! Again, "to know is not to control!"
Wednesday at 3:57pm • Edited • Like
Cloe Solis Is your god "all knowing"? Just answer me that and we'll take it from there.
Wednesday at 3:56pm • Like
Cloe Solis Btw...your god is omni "all" and therefore does not have "free will" as in order to have free will a system must be random.
Wednesday at 3:57pm • Like
Alvie Robbins To know is not to control. Yes of course, and in case you think I do not get it, I follow your line of reasoning. Just understand that God loves you too much to control you. His desire is that you love Him in return but not out of some manipulative demand but out of choice!
Wednesday at 3:59pm • Like
Cloe Solis But your god already knows everything. That's what you don't seem to understand. It doesn't matter about "control" it knows everything.
Wednesday at 4:01pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins So He knows everything--you still have to choose. As Scripture says, "Choose you this day who you will follow..." The choice is yours and no matter how much thee protesteth, the responsibility is still with you. There is no argument strong enough to divest you of your responsibility to choose.
Wednesday at 4:03pm • Like
Cloe Solis If your all knowing god existed, then it would know when your next eyelash will fall...and when you'll next yawn. All information would be known....and there would be no reason for existence.
Wednesday at 4:03pm • Like
Alvie Robbins As you choose to think... it is you choice. However, just because one thinks a thought in no way means that such is true. Yes, He knows all and even though He sees each of us and all there is to know about us, He loves us with an inestimable love--far beyond what we can understand. It is us who make the choice to respond or reject that love.
Wednesday at 4:05pm • Like
Cloe Solis That's not true, Alvie. If as you were creating a creature, you knew everything about that creature in which you were creating, then the responsibility for that creature is on you. You know exactly what you are creating and you create it. That makes YOU responsible. Your creature doesn't have choice as you made it to be exactly as you know it will be. Each and every step and everything that it does, you know.
Wednesday at 4:05pm • Like
Cloe Solis That's ridiculous, Alvie. If your god were an actual reality....we're all just puppets. It would be known who exactly would reject and would accept.....it would all be a set up.
Wednesday at 4:07pm • Like
Cloe Solis ALL is ALL....it's not some of partial....it's ALL....and in this regard "ALL" is in reference to what this god knows.
Wednesday at 4:08pm • Like
Cloe Solis And yes....I do have choices, and I do have free will...why(?) because the Universe is random.
Wednesday at 4:09pm • Like
Alvie Robbins The universe is not as random as you suppose as it is only random as you have chosen to view it as such. The universe is very much in order. If it was random it would soon be in chaos.
Wednesday at 4:27pm • Like
Alvie Robbins You see, God is a God of order and that is why the first scientists were men of faith, exploring that order. You may think random etc. but without that order you would have no way to even express your thoughts for your language would be random, not ever meaning the same one use of the word to the next.
Wednesday at 4:32pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins Simply stated Cloe, in all of the words that have passes back and forth,you are not comfortable with the God who is and so you expend no small effort to dismiss Him or to caste him in a way that is unacceptable to you and the reject Him. No matter your various opinions, He still is and is still the rewarder of those who seek Him.
Wednesday at 4:31pm • Like
Cloe Solis So, does the Easter Bunny exist too, Alvie?
Wednesday at 4:32pm • Like
Alvie Robbins If you say so, your perception is your reality but that does not make it a genuine reality! My quest for a long time is for genuine truth/reality!
Wednesday at 4:33pm • Like
Cloe Solis The Universe is from chaos as is proven through the entropy that is accounted for once energy is utilized from a system.
Wednesday at 4:34pm • Like
Cloe Solis We can account for the amount of entropy in fact that basically what entropy is....an amount of chaos.
Wednesday at 4:34pm • Like
Cloe Solis Your truth, Alvie is just as real or creditable as the Easter Bunny, or fairies, or gnomes...whatever. The proof is on the claimant.
Wednesday at 4:36pm • Like
Alvie Robbins That certainly is the POst-modernist view--everything is false unless proven true and then even when proven true it is not above suspicion. However, such a view is only 500 years old or so. Before that time such was not the case.
Wednesday at 4:38pm • Like
Cloe Solis Your raving about your god is this and that just proves that you speak for a false entity. Because if such an entity actually did exist, there should be proof by now as this world has been around for awhile.
Wednesday at 4:38pm • Like
Cloe Solis Newton was a supporter of determinism (as you are). He believed in a god. However, he was unaware of quantum mechanics or recent discoveries (such as evidences toward Einsteins theories).
Wednesday at 4:40pm • Like
Cloe Solis Cult mentalities are completely illogical. It's easy enough to point that out, but apparently very difficult for them to see it.
Wednesday at 4:47pm • Like
Bottom of Form
9 people like this.
Alvie Robbins God gives the power to choose but not the consequences. Choose #1 and what have you lost. Choose #2 and it is an eternal "crap shoot." I for one am not willing to take a chance!
March 5 at 10:47am • Like
Alvie Robbins The sign prompted a blog posting...http://alviesthots.blogspot.com/2013/03/eternal-games-of-chance.html
Alvie's Essays...: "Eternal Games of Chance"
alviesthots.blogspot.com
March 5 at 1:32pm • Like
Cloe Solis Why? See, that's the thing with many cults, they have to threaten in order to get followers. Consequences? ...threats.
March 5 at 7:16pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Cloe, see the next posting on the same subject for a different take on the matter.
March 5 at 8:13pm • Edited • Like
Cloe Solis It's an assumption of apathy. One need not be religious to be altruistic. However, if one is religious is one truly altruistic if belief is towards one's benefit to be altruistic?
March 5 at 8:20pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Maybe you could explain what altruism has to do with my discussion of apathy. I do not get it.
March 5 at 8:29pm • Like
Cloe Solis Caring for others as opposed to indifference. And while you're on the subject of human attitude and or behavior....shall we put your god on the stand as well? How so called "good" is your god in the scheme of things? How much horror can nature be credited? Your god the murderer, the torturer, the apparent sado-masochist (if it existed)...is echoed throughout nature. Yes Jesus....look at the birds and observe how much they suffer (I'll pass on your dad taking care of us as such.).
March 5 at 9:07pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. Your arguments and criticisms of Christ followers is nothing new. A reading the works of those who study ancient document will reveal that the same criticisms and arguments took place in the second century. Nothing new here.
March 5 at 9:47pm • Like
Cloe Solis There's no historical record of the guy or his apostles. The concil of nicea cut out what they didn't agree with (betcha most christians don't know who arius was...and they never will). So, what "history" has been studied? Jesus Christ most likely did not exist...and IF he did...he didn't in any way resemble the character that is depicted in the NT...that was Mithra. Mithra was born on Dec. 25th to a virgin and three wise men and a star....and Easter is actually Mithra's death in which he rose from the dead after three days. But you can't have the truth told, can you? Christianity has turned into such a huge industry, that those that are its followers must be kept ignorant. Heck....Jesus is still depicted as a handsome caucasian....geezus!
March 5 at 10:01pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Cloe, the reality is far different than you think. Even a casual reading of church history will reveal that there were many who predate Nicea and who wrote defending the Faith. The three that come to mind were classically trained in philosophy and came to Christ. Two of them, Aristides and Quadratus lived in Athens and in AD 124 directed their writings to Hadrian who was visiting Athens.
March 5 at 11:23pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins In the writings of Eusebius and Jerome around 150 years or so later we find reference to and quotation from the writings of these two philosophers who had come to Christ. Somewhere around 20 years after Aristides and Quadratus wrote there lived a man named Justin Martyr who also was classically trained wrote to defend Christianity against those who leveled false accusations against Christians.
March 5 at 11:32pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins Actually there is more evidence that they existed and wrote etc. than there is that you exist. Their writings have been studied and read by thousands and thousands of people from scholars down to commoners. Therefore, applying your thinking it is more prudent for me to believe in them than in you. As I say, even a casual reading of Church history will reveal their existence.
March 5 at 11:27pm • Like
Alvie Robbins By the by, the last NT book to be written was the Book of Revelation which was authored somewhere between 90 and 100. In the AD 170 Muratorian Canon all but thre of the New Testament books were listed as canonical. In fairness it contained other books as well.
March 5 at 11:28pm • Like
Alvie Robbins As to Mithra, you may recall that I wrote to you extensively about that the belief in her and that even secular history records that the cult was of little importance and was not exercised to any great degree until somewhere in the late 2nd Century and that in Rome. Before that it was little known, little practiced, and thus you would be hard put to show a connection that would prove to any prudent scholar that it was the foundation of Christianity. The documentation is simply not there.
March 5 at 11:38pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins It seems to me that you are caught in your thinking and like an old wax record with a crack, you keep playing the same words over and over again. You are capable of so much more than taking pot shots at Christians especially since there is, as I noted previously, really nothing new in your arsenal. Same old stuff.
March 5 at 11:39pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins Well, gotta go do some other stuff.
March 5 at 11:39pm • Like
Cloe Solis You appear to be confused, Alvie. Mithra:Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or "disciples."
He performed miracles.
As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
He ascended to heaven.
Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
Mithraism emphasized baptism.
Wednesday at 10:58am • Like
Cloe Solis As far as the "philosophers" that you mention...do you mean Tacitus and Josephus? They were historians that were born after your god's death (if he existed). Both Tacitus and Josephus passages have been considered "forgeries". Why? Well, for one, Josephus mentions "The Christ" and Josephus was a Jew. Jews do NOT accept Jesus as their messiah. Tacitus mentions the "Christians"...and the mention is said to be very out of place amongst his writings.
Wednesday at 11:04am • Like
Alvie Robbins No meant the three that I mentioned. Re: Mithra--how about a source that is without bias--check http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/386080/Mithraism.
Mithraism (Persian religion) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
www.britannica.com
The worship of Mithra, the Iranian god of the sun, justice, contract, and war in... pre-Zoroastrian Iran. Known as Mithras in the Roman Empire during the 2nd and 3rd centuries ad, this deity was honoured...See More
Wednesday at 11:11am • Like
Cloe Solis This is where I copied the quick reference: http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm
Mithra the Pagan Christ | Mithraism and Christianity | Mithras the Sun God
www.truthbeknown.com
Mithra, the Light of the World, is an ancient sun god identified with Sol Invict...us, who was born on December 25th. Mithra resembled Jesus Christ in many ways, including having a virgin birth, 12 companions and an ascension into heaven, as well as other doctrinal and ritual correspondences such as ba...See More
Wednesday at 11:53am • Like • Remove Preview
Cloe Solis The Judaic god wants its followers to worship it foremost above all other gods. That was common amongst the gods. They all wanted to be worshiped as the dominant god. It's a man-made mind construct.
Wednesday at 11:55am • Like
Alvie Robbins From your source: Mithra and Christ
"Over the centuries—in fact, from the earliest Christian times—Mithraism has been compared to Christianity, revealing numerous similarities between the two faiths' doctrines and traditions, including as concerns stories of their respective godmen. In developing this analysis, it should be kept in mind that elements from Roman, Armenian and Persian Mithraism are utilized, not as a whole ideology but as separate items that may have affected the creation of Christianity, whether directly through the mechanism of Mithraism or through another Pagan source within the Roman Empire and beyond. The evidence points to these motifs and elements being adopted into Christianity not as a whole from one source but singularly from many sources, including Mithraism."
Wednesday at 11:57am • Like
Alvie Robbins What that is saying is that elements from Roman, Armenian, and Persian Mithraism are supposedly imported into Christianity. 1) There is no artifact, document, or other credible archeological source that can prove this. Thus it is in the category of unfounded or conjecture. 2) The notion seems to have evolved. The Scriptures close in 100 AD and were in wide circulation around the Roman Empire well before the 3rd Century. Thus if anything Roman Mitheraism was influenced by Christianity 3) Check the dating of what the OT Prophets said about the coming Christ--when they wrote. Also be sure to note that Judaism was a purist religion thus they would never import from the religions which they were strictly forbidden to practice!
Wednesday at 12:04pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Please include the following at the end. "Just as with Judaism, Christianity was a purist religion and the importation of other religions and practices was strictly forbidden!"
Wednesday at 12:06pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Again, there is much speculation but show me hard scholarship, not speculation but hard scholarship based upon archeology, the writings from the Library at Alexandria, Constantinople, and/or Rome where there is sound documentation that such is so. There are hundreds of thousands of ancient manuscripts etc. and none can be put on the table to prove your point.
Wednesday at 12:08pm • Like
Alvie Robbins The point to consider is this. Man was created to be in fellowship with God. The God of creation calls upon man to do so. God knows man and with man in mind gave to man guidance on how to live. Man rebelled against that guidance and so has created gods which he finds to be convenient. Jesus came to show the way back to God. All men to include you are called upon to make the choice.
Wednesday at 12:11pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Jesus said, "Come unto Me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of Me for my way is easy and my burden is light." Man does one of three things. 1) He finds God through Jesus Christ. Yes, it is a step into the unknown by faith. This is hard for it requires trust and for some because of life's experiences it is hard but not impossible.
Wednesday at 12:14pm • Like
Alvie Robbins 2) Man creates a god of convenience. This god will never rise above the creators moral/ethical level. Of course this god is not at all fulfilling for just as man's self is insatiable so too is the god he creates. 3) Man becomes so in love with his own thinking that such becomes a god. In this case all must fit through that man's understanding. The sad part is that such understanding is deceived into thinking of itself on a much higher plane than is reality.
Wednesday at 12:16pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Again, Cloe, Jesus' call is to come and try Me. He offers what all others cannot, peace in adversity, fulfillment in life, and a hope that is beyond one's capacity to understand. However, it is as you point out all about control (you frequently express this as a criticism of Christianity). The reality of it all is far different than you suppose or propose. Those who make the claim that no one will control them are in the clutches of themselves and in reality are under the control of the insatiable self.
Wednesday at 12:21pm • Like
Alvie Robbins The reality of Christianity--true Christianity is that it frees one from the power of the self and in doing so allows one the freedom to choose. You see you have no choice in the matter of sin--well you can redefine it but it makes not difference, sin is sin no matter how it is defined, labeled, or explained. What you see as freedom in reality will take you to a place of bondage. Jesus Christ came to free His followers from their sin and the attendant bondages.
Wednesday at 12:24pm • Like
Chris Bassett Cloe, you sound like what I'm often accused of...always having the perfect, refutation at hand. This begs the question of how perfect are your refutations. I've heard the criticisms about Mithra and Josephus' false writings, among all of the others. I teach about Arius to my people, too (including how Athanasius punched him in the nose at the council of Nicaea!). Arius was heretical because he was out of step with the traditional teachings of the church and writings of the Apostles. He was the cult leader - especially if you read how he treated Athanasius in Alexandria.
Your arguments are irrefutable. Not because they are correct, but because you believe them as a crutch against what yo don't wish to believe. You have judged God and made Him subject to you, rather than accepting the possibility that He may actually be a) good, b) guiding history toward His ends, and c) able to maintain faith in Him despite man's (or Satan's) interventions. I could easily give my refutations to your arguments and we could go on and on, but you would look at mine as I look at yours, saying, "How convenient."
I will simply pray for you to have a revelation of Jesus as I have had, and as hundreds of my friends have had - a deep, personal, on-going revelation of His goodness, the truth of His message, the far-surpassing superiority of His way, and the beauty if His life. And I will pray that you see that we are and have always been the agents of evil who choose our own way, to our detriment. As C.S. Lewis pointed out: Hell is a place where the gates are locked from within. If we are judged, it is because we first wrongly judged. But in Christ we no longer are condemned, and neither do we condemn.
Wednesday at 12:33pm • Like
Cloe Solis Let me offer you this, Chris...I come from a culture that at one time was pagan (few but some still are polytheistic). The majority may believe in your god, but they still carry "respect" for the gods. Madame Pele is not only believed, but has been seen on many occasions. So, tell me...is she real? Is she a real god? Do you not see what we as a species are doing to ourselves? We are stopping discovery, because we have given into belief. If someone were to come to you and say that they spoke to your god, would you just believe them? Or, would you investigate and find out what was going on....and never ever stop until you do find out what is going on? The first means is religious, the second means is science. Even if you died and came back with an experience does not make such absolute....you in my opinion should take that experience and find out what's going on. That's what I've been doing for well over forty years now, and during that time, I have found your religion along with other religions to be false. They are man-made constructs and nothing more. Btw...Christ did indeed "condemn". It's one of the most judgmental religions around....and pushy pushy pushy. Why is it so pushy? Because everyone that is not "saved" by your Jesus Christ is "condemned to HELL where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Threats threats threats...typical cult.
Wednesday at 1:35pm • Like
Alvie Robbins So now I am confused. You just wrote, " Btw...Christ did indeed "condemn". So your statement and that which followed as much as says Jesus did live. Explain?
Wednesday at 1:39pm • Like
Cloe Solis Btw...imo....your refutation Chris was not "perfect". It was more toward "yeah, I read all that and still believe in the Easter Bunny". The refutation to that is "believe in the Easter Bunny, but don't spread the lie."
Wednesday at 1:39pm • Like
Cloe Solis It's called the benefit of doubt, Alvie. I'm debating on the premise that the guy existed. I honestly don't believe that he did in the manner to which he's been created.
Wednesday at 1:40pm • Like
Alvie Robbins "I honestly don't believe that he did in the manner to which he's been created." So he existed but not in the manner that Christians believe?
Wednesday at 1:43pm • Like
Cloe Solis He may have...I dunno....there's no historical records. He certainly wasn't exemplarary or there would be tons of historical record on the guy.
Wednesday at 1:44pm • Like
Cloe Solis I know a guy that died and asked specifically about "Jesus Christ". His account sounds much more realistic than the god he's made out to be.
Wednesday at 1:45pm • Like
Cloe Solis But you wouldn't be able to make a business out of him then.
Wednesday at 1:46pm • Like
Alvie Robbins So there is a possibility that he existed? Did I get that right?
Wednesday at 1:46pm • Like
Cloe Solis His name wasn't Jesus and he was a rebellious rabbi. So there could be an actual person that this has stemmed from...yes...but not the person that has been created, no.
Wednesday at 1:48pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Well actually "Jesus" was a common name of the day. There were many just as today you find "Jesus" in Latin cultures.
Wednesday at 1:49pm • Like
Cloe Solis Jesus is greek isn't it? It certainly wasn't "Emmanuel".
Wednesday at 1:50pm • Like
Cloe Solis My friend said that he had five followers (not the twelve apostles as was Mithra's), and no miracles. His doctrine was more welcoming to outsiders, and that's what was found to be appealing.
Wednesday at 1:52pm • Like
Alvie Robbins Hebrew Yeshua - no j/g sound in Hebrew. His name was found in OT in the person of the second leader of Israel Joshua. The name means, "YHWH saves"
Wednesday at 1:54pm • Like
Cloe Solis Why would an all knowing god have to save anyone when it already knows everything that was going to happen and made it anyway?
Wednesday at 1:55pm • Like
Cloe Solis It would be like you making something just to torture it....forever (remember wailing and gnashing forever and ever).
Wednesday at 1:56pm • Like
Cloe Solis An obviously blatant contradiction....that all believers seem to overlook.
Wednesday at 1:57pm • Like
Alvie Robbins These are your thoughts out of your assumptions. As noted earlier, "Knowing is not controlling." God gave man the freedom to make choices! You choose your assumptions and then out of those assumptions come your beliefs. You have the power to choose but not the outcomes!
Wednesday at 2:17pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins Cloe, there are no end of the questions that begin with, "Did God really say?" The message of the serpent was God is ripping you off. It has been so since then. I choose to believe God is good. I may not understand nor even like His good but He is good! That is my assumption.
Wednesday at 2:19pm • Edited • Like
Cloe Solis Did you know that there was a gnostic cult (original Christians) that believed that the actual god was the one that wanted man to have knowledge and that the evil one was the one that wanted to keep man in its zoo. Interesting, huh? I see that as a philosophy and not as how you may believe it to be a reality. An "ALL KNOWING" god CANNOT give free will....it CANNOT give "freedom to make choices".....because it already KNOWS EVERRYTHING. Therefore anyone that believes that they have choice under your beliefs is fooling themselves as it's ALL KNOWN. Your next move is KNOWN. Your next move was already KNOWN before you came into existence as your god is ALL KNOWING....KNOWS ALL EVERTHING BEGINNING AND END. You under your beliefs are therefore predetermined to do exactly what you will do. Some folks like this idea because then they have something to blame.
Wednesday at 2:41pm • Like
Alvie Robbins The "gnostics" were not the original Christians but an aberration which taught that they had special and exclusive knowledge not available to others. They taught for example that all matter is bad and therefore Jesus did not come physically, die physically, etc. Again it is as said earlier, "All is in the assumptions one is prepared to accept!" You cannot accept any other assumption about God and free will for it would allow for the possibility that God is good.
Wednesday at 2:47pm • Like
Cloe Solis Which gnostics are you speaking for? There were a few sects/cults. As stated before....an "ALL KNOWING" god could not give free will or choice. Hmm...okay...try this...let's say that you're all knowing, that would be a closed system in which all information is known. It's not infinite as its "ALL" so there is a beginning and end to your system. You cannot give any of your creation their very own freewill because you already know everything, everything or you wouldn't be all knowing. You would therefore be lying to your creatures if you claimed to have given them their own will. Can you not see this very simple contradiction in your religion?
Wednesday at 3:01pm • Like
Cloe Solis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
Gnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Gnostic Gospels • Nag Hammadi libraryCodex Tchacos • Askew CodexPseudo-Abdias •B...ruce Codex • Berlin Codex • Gnosticism and the New Testament • Clementine literatureSee More
Wednesday at 3:02pm • Like • Remove Preview
Alvie Robbins First, understand that God has free will and can do as He pleases. He is not bound by our intellect nor our understanding! Second, a story.
Wednesday at 3:49pm • Like
Alvie Robbins You meet your husband to be and go to the shaman you heard about and you purchase a potent that you put in your husband to his drink. He drinks it and falls madly in love with you, marries you, etc. You would never know if he does love you or if it is the potent you gave him. As with all similes it breaks down if carried too far. However, the basic truth is there! God gave us a choice and by the way, He has no responsibility to be logical according to our finite standards of logic. He can do what He d--- well pleases. I've chosen to believe in Him and follow Him even on those few occasions when He makes no sense to me--that is faith. You've chosen another path. As you say, without free will there is no responsibility. Be it just as you say! Again, "to know is not to control!"
Wednesday at 3:57pm • Edited • Like
Cloe Solis Is your god "all knowing"? Just answer me that and we'll take it from there.
Wednesday at 3:56pm • Like
Cloe Solis Btw...your god is omni "all" and therefore does not have "free will" as in order to have free will a system must be random.
Wednesday at 3:57pm • Like
Alvie Robbins To know is not to control. Yes of course, and in case you think I do not get it, I follow your line of reasoning. Just understand that God loves you too much to control you. His desire is that you love Him in return but not out of some manipulative demand but out of choice!
Wednesday at 3:59pm • Like
Cloe Solis But your god already knows everything. That's what you don't seem to understand. It doesn't matter about "control" it knows everything.
Wednesday at 4:01pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins So He knows everything--you still have to choose. As Scripture says, "Choose you this day who you will follow..." The choice is yours and no matter how much thee protesteth, the responsibility is still with you. There is no argument strong enough to divest you of your responsibility to choose.
Wednesday at 4:03pm • Like
Cloe Solis If your all knowing god existed, then it would know when your next eyelash will fall...and when you'll next yawn. All information would be known....and there would be no reason for existence.
Wednesday at 4:03pm • Like
Alvie Robbins As you choose to think... it is you choice. However, just because one thinks a thought in no way means that such is true. Yes, He knows all and even though He sees each of us and all there is to know about us, He loves us with an inestimable love--far beyond what we can understand. It is us who make the choice to respond or reject that love.
Wednesday at 4:05pm • Like
Cloe Solis That's not true, Alvie. If as you were creating a creature, you knew everything about that creature in which you were creating, then the responsibility for that creature is on you. You know exactly what you are creating and you create it. That makes YOU responsible. Your creature doesn't have choice as you made it to be exactly as you know it will be. Each and every step and everything that it does, you know.
Wednesday at 4:05pm • Like
Cloe Solis That's ridiculous, Alvie. If your god were an actual reality....we're all just puppets. It would be known who exactly would reject and would accept.....it would all be a set up.
Wednesday at 4:07pm • Like
Cloe Solis ALL is ALL....it's not some of partial....it's ALL....and in this regard "ALL" is in reference to what this god knows.
Wednesday at 4:08pm • Like
Cloe Solis And yes....I do have choices, and I do have free will...why(?) because the Universe is random.
Wednesday at 4:09pm • Like
Alvie Robbins The universe is not as random as you suppose as it is only random as you have chosen to view it as such. The universe is very much in order. If it was random it would soon be in chaos.
Wednesday at 4:27pm • Like
Alvie Robbins You see, God is a God of order and that is why the first scientists were men of faith, exploring that order. You may think random etc. but without that order you would have no way to even express your thoughts for your language would be random, not ever meaning the same one use of the word to the next.
Wednesday at 4:32pm • Edited • Like
Alvie Robbins Simply stated Cloe, in all of the words that have passes back and forth,you are not comfortable with the God who is and so you expend no small effort to dismiss Him or to caste him in a way that is unacceptable to you and the reject Him. No matter your various opinions, He still is and is still the rewarder of those who seek Him.
Wednesday at 4:31pm • Like
Cloe Solis So, does the Easter Bunny exist too, Alvie?
Wednesday at 4:32pm • Like
Alvie Robbins If you say so, your perception is your reality but that does not make it a genuine reality! My quest for a long time is for genuine truth/reality!
Wednesday at 4:33pm • Like
Cloe Solis The Universe is from chaos as is proven through the entropy that is accounted for once energy is utilized from a system.
Wednesday at 4:34pm • Like
Cloe Solis We can account for the amount of entropy in fact that basically what entropy is....an amount of chaos.
Wednesday at 4:34pm • Like
Cloe Solis Your truth, Alvie is just as real or creditable as the Easter Bunny, or fairies, or gnomes...whatever. The proof is on the claimant.
Wednesday at 4:36pm • Like
Alvie Robbins That certainly is the POst-modernist view--everything is false unless proven true and then even when proven true it is not above suspicion. However, such a view is only 500 years old or so. Before that time such was not the case.
Wednesday at 4:38pm • Like
Cloe Solis Your raving about your god is this and that just proves that you speak for a false entity. Because if such an entity actually did exist, there should be proof by now as this world has been around for awhile.
Wednesday at 4:38pm • Like
Cloe Solis Newton was a supporter of determinism (as you are). He believed in a god. However, he was unaware of quantum mechanics or recent discoveries (such as evidences toward Einsteins theories).
Wednesday at 4:40pm • Like
Cloe Solis Cult mentalities are completely illogical. It's easy enough to point that out, but apparently very difficult for them to see it.
Wednesday at 4:47pm • Like
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Hey Alvie...I have a question for ya...and this forum is a lot more private than facebook...sooo...
How can Jesus be a demi-god when the NT states that he is a descendant of King David?
Joseph (NOT Mary) was said to be the line to David. So, that would make Jesus the son of Joseph, and not the result of a virgin birth.
What say ya?
How can Jesus be a demi-god when the NT states that he is a descendant of King David?
Joseph (NOT Mary) was said to be the line to David. So, that would make Jesus the son of Joseph, and not the result of a virgin birth.
What say ya?
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